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  #46  
Old 12-17-2012, 07:56 PM
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ms80831 ms80831 is offline
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Originally Posted by scandtours View Post
To calm down the ...spirits, lets watch some nice gyros flying on floats over Seychelles instead.
.....If you watch it full screen the spirits will calm down even more quickly. ...

Giorgos

Thanks for posting those. What a beautiful place.

And what a nice Sea gyroplane.

Are those standard floats, or amphib floats?
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  #47  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:01 PM
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TrixSea Gyro proto type



Looks eerily similar to Ramphos flying boat trike hull actually. Quite interesting
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  #48  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
Yep,
I saw Apollos version of the Gyro bcos it was obviously a copy of the MTO and even used the MTO blades.
Victor just to satisfy your curiosity
Have a look closely at Air Copter A3C of France and notice closely the rotor head and blades
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-C...Air/1810982/L/

To quote: "MT-03 the proven extruded anodised aluminium NACA 8 H 12 rotor built by Air Copter is used. The aluminium rotorblades are available in different lengths with diameters between 6,50m and 8,40m."

So MTO blades and rotors are available and they are bought and used by Apollo as well.
Got to get used to it. Apollo didn't copy their blades. They use the same exact blades.

Last edited by fara; 01-05-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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  #49  
Old 12-18-2012, 03:10 PM
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I've made 2 post about your attitude fara. So let me tell you something that just might sink in. There use to be another member of this forum that thought his stuff didn't stink and felt that all of us were rear ends. Well one day he crossed the line, needless to say he's no longer a member. Think about it.
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  #50  
Old 12-18-2012, 03:16 PM
HydroGyroNut HydroGyroNut is online now
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Dear Abid,
I honestly do understand your point of view but I do see bias in the equation since you have represented Apollo in the past and do not wish to speak the obvious, which is--Heck, they could have done a better job in this modern day of CAD design in producing a machine that looked a little different and performed just as good, and not just another clone.. I'm just saying.. They just did not bother...How would you feel if all other companies kicking out gyros looked exactly like that, same tail, same fairing style, etc etc.. Look at what Arrowcopter did. Heck, APOLLO should have hired me (for free)to design one for them and it would look sleeker,and not be deemed a clone. All you have to say is,you agree that just changing the type of metal used and framework under the skin, and then few minor fairing changes,and while at it, heck, why not throw on an MTO rotor ... doesn't sound like some major INNOVATION. They are selling it as a new design, Model. Roy's is not and he never said putting his gyro on floats is innovative and he never posted the pictures on this forum himself, and you jumped allover this. Again, I see the Arrowcopter as different. Their designers tried and no one can say it's a clone of any other. There are some people willing to try something new, like Roy has done and in my mind, that is in some ways innovative, just because his is the first EVER amphib in the WORLD , true amphibious gyrocopter on floats, which can land on water, and land on solid ground as well as fly like a gyro, and he has done it. Easy it may seem, but no one did it prior to him, because they thought it was unsafe. Straight floats yes, not amphibs.
Yes, there is some loss in performance but, heck some people are okay with that. But please, please give him some credit for having the balls to even test-fly such a seemingly unsafe machine, and some would say unstable machine. At least someones trying to move the sport forward if others are not willing..so it would be nice to say, GOOD JOB.. LOOKS NICE.. GUY HAS BALLS.. Stuff like that.. Abid, It's okay to say things like that. How about if you had just imported in MTOs and placed them on amphib floats because that was your interst and it had never been done before and people started bashing you after you posted pictures, without knowing what your results were after testing? How would you feel?

I will tell you why most of the companies for trikes and floats went under. Boils down to cost.Demand was not there bcos noone wants to fly only on and off water at ridiculous prices. Floats alone add significant cost making it prohibitive for people to justify buying a mere toy that was only capable for water use ALONE and fun alone. Floats alone are not an option for most pilots and compounded with the extreme cost becomes a quickly dwindling market. Simple light weight floats with retract wheels that work well, at a reasonable cost would definitely have a larger market as reflected by much higher sales of Challengers flying with current amphib composite floats.
Now the reason a design like ICON A-5 would be succesful is bcos of the sleek and purposeful built design, amphib from ground allowing for improved performance on land and water, accomplishing not only Fun recreational flying but even business purposes. People are willing to pay more.. Ofcourse,as you earlier said, cost may go even higher and with that, not surprising the demand will keep falling..I still believe it should be possible to develop a composite sleek amphib gyro with great performance specs at an affordable price, comparable or slightly higher than current land versions with current composite mold technology. It has just not been done yet and most companies like APOLLO failing to think outside the box just jump into an existing market, trying to compete with the big boys in the game, instead of developing something more unique that will jump at the market with the wow-factor. Great sleek lines, amphib ,cost effective, great performance, removable convertible light weight canopy, built on sleek step-on and into cabin floats molded into the fuselage, great looking tail different from the MTO-style tail that will appeal to a large variety of fun/ thrill seekers as well as serious crosscountry lovers,a functional backup BRS system that works(some believe in redundancy adding more potential buyer etc etc..They could have just hired me and you will get a winning design instead of old boring stuff. I see Apollo as a company that could have achieved such an objective but decide to go the old boring rout.
Even though Autogyro may have cloned someone else, few people at the time new better or even knew what a gyro was, so noone really cared. The interest is however growing and times are different now. Apollo should know better..Why would I buy an Apollo over an MTO if the price is not way less? Not innovative enough for me and not cost competitive enough for me.PERIOD.

About my trike. Enough is enough. You refuse to give praise were praise is due and i understand that bcos this is just Abid being himself. There was no amphib trike in existence in the USA, like the one i had with such breathtaking lines and handling, then and even now. I heard it over and over again from UNBIASED people, but you refuse to see it bcos all float trikes are junk on floats, even though in your words, they need to be designed from ground up to be amphibious, to perform well.. Again give credit to people thinking outta the box.The designers of that trike did a wonderful job designing and not copying anyone.I'm not okay when you trash talk, all trikes on floats are junk etc etc.All i heard was negative stuff from you about float flying. I'm just glad Larry did not do the same.

Now, I never assumed i could get up one day and hurl myself into the wind, without developing the necessary skills but I'm confident I will eventually be a good pilot after enough baby steps and practice. Hopefully, my new instructor will not bang me on my helmet like you did when you were unhappy with something I did. By the way, that is kinda rude. I will indeed tread carefully into my coming adventure. Thanks for all the advice.

I'm sure the other gyronauts are tired of our squabbling. Lets agree to disagree in the evnt you still think I'm trash talking.
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  #51  
Old 12-18-2012, 04:38 PM
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I have read everything in this thread and don't feel that ANYONE should be having hurt feelings by anything said in here. This is a internet discussion forum and thats whats happening, discussion. So everyone calm down and take a breath and continue on peacefully please!
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  #52  
Old 12-18-2012, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GyroRon View Post
I have read everything in this thread and don't feel that ANYONE should be having hurt feelings by anything said in here. This is a internet discussion forum and thats whats happening, discussion. So everyone calm down and take a breath and continue on peacefully please!
I totally agree with you ron! Too many people live in a digital reality. :-)
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  #53  
Old 12-18-2012, 06:08 PM
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I have read all the threads and see there is some confusion about my MTO on Amphibs or any gyro put on floats.
I built this gyro to take me fishing and to travel to places that are inaccessible to boats or other aircraft and also just to have fun flying. I have flown many seaplanes including the searay, cub, Cessna and I own a Maule M7 on amphibs. All are different and have their drawbacks, especially when traveling by water and trying to dock somewhere. The gyro can dock or beach most anywhere because I can align the blade with her longitudinal axis from the cockpit. It also takes very little water so I can fish the flats, under 10" of water. Small lakes become a possibility.
It is an Autogyro MTO Sport. The Amphib floats are made by Puddle Jumper in Canada, they are a fiberglass catermaran type float with lightweight manual operated gear. The prop is a Warp drive with nickel leading edge. I chose the floats because they are lightweight, catamaran style and amphibious.
I have put 33 hours on her and tested most maneuvers that will be encountered on the ground, in the air and on the water. "It flys fine", really it does. Anytime you ask one machine to do 3 different things none of them are going to be perfect or the best in that arena. I have not flown a machine that does the three as well as this gyro does. On the ground It taxis and takes off as on wheels, maybe add a 100 feet. In the air it is stable from 0-80 kts , there has not been even a bit of any PPO or bunting in varied power settings or flight attitudes. It has lots of control in hover pedal turns and flys sideways nicely. Side slips with and without power are no problem. It lands normal on land and water, usually about 20 feet. Take offs from water are very short with wind and longer with calm but still much shorter than any airplane that I've flown.
To date the gyrophibian has exceeded my expectations for my purposes and from the shear joy of flying.
There are no bad habits or points of being uncomfortable so far. I will finish my 40 hrs this week and then on to putting different weights in the back and surprisingly much ballast to choose from.
Looking forward to talking with y'all at Sebring, Sun & Fun and Bensen days.
Roy T Hanan
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  #54  
Old 12-18-2012, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Gyrophibian View Post
Side slips with and without power are no problem.
Roy, I would urge you to be very careful with side slips. The problem with gyros that have a large surface under the gyro CG is similar to a helicopter dynamic rollover, if you are familiar with those. Everything could feel just fine until you cross the point where the rotors can't compensate for the rolling moment due to the limited cyclic range. If you ever find that point, you will become a passenger all the way down. There is no recovery. I think you have a very nice gyro and I would love to fly with you some day but I think you should be mindful and educated about the special dangers of this design.

Udi

Dynamic Rollover - YouTube
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  #55  
Old 12-18-2012, 07:03 PM
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Very nice video. One can see the left wheel caught in the fence at the 27 second mark, creating the pivot point. Nothing like a good video to highlight the sobering reality of how things can go wrong very fast. Thanks for posting.
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  #56  
Old 12-18-2012, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Udi View Post
Roy, I would urge you to be very careful with side slips. The problem with gyros that have a large surface under the gyro CG is similar to a helicopter dynamic rollover, if you are familiar with those. Everything could feel just fine until you cross the point where the rotors can't compensate for the rolling moment due to the limited cyclic range. If you ever find that point, you will become a passenger all the way down. There is no recovery. I think you have a very nice gyro and I would love to fly with you some day but I think you should be mindful and educated about the special dangers of this design.

Udi

Dynamic Rollover - YouTube

Easy thing is simply avoid side slips. On water you usually can and should land right into the wind and gyros w/o side slip can come down already at steep angles so not much real need I see for side slips in that configuration. Am I right or am I missing some scenarios that pop up often (catching a fence etc. not withstanding ... that was quite something to see btw)

Last edited by fara; 12-18-2012 at 08:10 PM.
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  #57  
Old 12-18-2012, 08:20 PM
fara fara is offline
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Originally Posted by gyronutjoe View Post
I've made 2 post about your attitude fara. So let me tell you something that just might sink in. There use to be another member of this forum that thought his stuff didn't stink and felt that all of us were rear ends. Well one day he crossed the line, needless to say he's no longer a member. Think about it.
. Oh well. If the forum moderators think that technical opinions (that's not attitude) need punishing by removal then so be it. Its not like I depend on this forum to put food on my table so what the heck. I in fact resigned from my previous job in aviation from a company which I started in 2003 (changed names and forms a few times) so that I explicitly did not have to put up with things like this threat of internet forum removal among a few other points (really I have one of my degrees in Comp Sci, but this things is just a tool not my life man) and went found work that paid better w/o having to put up with having to restraint like this. So go right ahead . Not having to sell gyroplanes to put food on my table affords great freedom . If I do something in gyroplanes, its not because I need to make money from them. What a relief. Whew !!! . Though I enjoy the challenge of running a business like a business and making it stand on its own, I do find great pleasure in that challenge/work.

Somehow I think the moderators can differentiate between bigoted, personally disrespectful attacks and technical and even personal opinions about machines or designs. I give them more credit than you are giving them I think.

Last edited by fara; 12-18-2012 at 08:33 PM.
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  #58  
Old 12-18-2012, 08:25 PM
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Roy, good on you. You seem to know what you wanted, had reasonable expectations, and have found what suits you. I hope you have may hours of great pleasure in your machine.

The advice on side slipping however is very valid. There is no call for side slipping a gyro, height loss is never a problem with the ability to vertically descend. Yes it can be done because we wish to, but it should be borne in mind that in certain gyros it can be a dangerous manoeuvre, that can have disastrous consequences in a heartbeat.

Enjoy flying your rather unique machine.
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  #59  
Old 12-19-2012, 04:39 AM
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Roy, I don't know you and don't know your rotorcraft background, as in how much training you took, who trained you, hours flown total, how many makes and models youve flown, and how much rotorcraft general knowledge and history you are aware of.

What I do know, is a PPO or Buntover, is not something that you can feel the gyro doing, until it does it. A PPO is a power push over. a PIO is not the same. a PIO can lead to a PPO, but you can have a gyro that never PIO's and yet still PPO's.

A gyro is one of the few aircrafts out there that will fly, and seem to fly very nice, even when there are issues with it's design and operation. You can have a very high thrustline, a very low thrustline... you can have a horizontal stab or not have a horizontal stab.... you can have a very forward weight bias or a very rearward weight bias... All the while, the gyro will fly and will seemly fly pretty dam good.

The problem occurs when a line is crossed in how the gyro is operated... and if there are things wrong with the gyro, it can kill you.

The problem with your gyro is by adding the floats, you have made your gyro a extremely high thrustline machine. This would be simular to having a airplane the the CG WAY behind the Aft CG limits ( ie, tail heavy ) The gyro will bunt over if the line is crossed, the plane will spin and likely be unrecoverable if it's line is crossed.

In the plane, a good pilot can feel that the plane is tailheavy by how it handles. The plane is warning the pilot, the pilot should be aware that somethings wrong. In a gyro, there is nothing the gyro will do as far as how it flys that would suggest that somethings wrong. The pilot would assume everything is fine.

Now if the pilot in the airplane just flew very carefully and made sure not to put the plane into a stall, it would never spin and it could be " safely" flown, even when it's tail heavy. Same thing with the gyro, if flown carefully, it won't PPO and bunt over.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of high thrustline gyros, and thousands of flight hours between them. So it is very possible to fly a high thrust line gyro! But there are also many docummented cases of fatal crashes due to PPO. And the only gyros that can PPO are high thrustline gyros!

Anyways, saying all that, I just hope you have the time to look in PPO further, to get a better understanding of it. There are videos of gyros Bunting over, and you will see how a gyro can be seemingly flying along perfectly fine one second to tumbling over the next... PPO happens too fast for any recovery.

I wish you luck and enjoyment with your gyro. I would not call it a death trap or anything that harsh, simply because if flown properly it should be just fine to fly and probably awesome for flying around where you live on the gulf coast. Just please be very alert of what the gyro is doing and never let how good it seems to fly allow you to put your guard down or try to push the limits. There is a line that if you cross, you will bunt over! I can assure of that.
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  #60  
Old 12-19-2012, 05:23 AM
HydroGyroNut HydroGyroNut is online now
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High guys,
I'm following with interest and it's indeed concerning and no one ever wants to cross the red line. However, surely with all the knowledge out there, there must be some extra precautions one can take apart from, ofcourse staying away from obvious hazardous manuvers that could lead to a PPO. I believe one would be sudden rapid change in thrust application. Any other avoidable scenarios?Also IMHO, The MTO seems to have enough horizontal stab area, but would say increasing this surface area in anyway decrease chances of PPO occuring, in a seemingly now high thrust line gyro bcos of the floats. Any tests that can be done safely to determine the presence of such a hazardous tendency?
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